Interviewing Pieter Levels about his Success and Indie Lifestyle

Podcast Episode #184

Powered by RedCircle

spotify apple podcasts google podcasts
Notify me on new episodes

Show Notes

Listen to Pieter Levels speak about his upbringing and what motivated him to become an entrepreneur. In this interview, we also try to pin down certain personal characteristics that contributed to Pieter’s success in his bootstrapped startups and cover more philosophical topics like life purpose and religion. About Pieter:

About Wannabe Entrepreneur

Join our WBE Space

Buy WBE Merch

Follow me on Twitter


hello and welcome to another episode of Wannabe Entrepreneur the podcast about what's really like to bootstrap a
company and today i have a new person in the business kind of a newbie in
bootstrapping his name is peter levels what's up with everything good what's up man thank you for having me yeah thank
you for for taking the time i think obviously everyone that is listening to to this knows peter
is kind of the person that started bootstrapping was just chatting about it off the record and he just said that now
bootstrapping is kind of mainstream and everyone speaks about it when when he first started everyone was more into vc
and startups and shark tank and not a lot of people were actually speaking about the bootstrapping so is
the creator of nomad list remote okay and i guess another thousand
cool projects and yeah super excited to have a chat with you and i guess we can speak a
little bit about rebates about portugal about bootstrapping i have a lot of questions
so super excited yeah me too i always ask this to to the people i'm
interviewing to to introduce themselves in their own words if you don't mind would you would you do
that yeah sure yeah so uh my name is peter levels uh i'm originally from holland
um amsterdam kind of i wasn't born there but i lived there a lot and everybody knows amsterdam so it's easy place to
stay you know yeah um i love the city and it's such a cool city yeah it's it's beautiful especially in the summer it's
amazing and uh and so i make kind of like startups but like not like really like billion dollar
startups but i mean million dollar startups is kind of good and they're uh kind of indie so i don't
really raise funding for them i just make it kind of myself i i write code i
design i make the logo i do the marketing i do pretty much everything i make the
database i make the code and um and i made like a lot of projects like
over like 70 projects and a few became successful like nomad list
uh and remote okay um and recently like you said rebase and most of my products now are about kind
of like remote work and it's kind of like my mission is to
promote the freedom of global movement uh that's enabled by remote work and uh
yeah that's kind of like what i what i you know what i live for like that's what i want to do and that's what
i did for the last i guess almost like eight years now i think so why this motto why why having this
mission of allowing everyone to travel freely i think it's it's something that uh
like like when i grew up i i didn't actually i didn't travel like around the whole world it was like the first time i
i really went outside like europe was uh in 2009
i studied business administration in amsterdam and they had a program like
exchange program like many people do it these days and and i went to korea and i studied in
seoul at korea university that's the name of the university and um and it was like life changing i was like wow i'm on
the other side of the world and you know like everybody i think i was like i was like scared of the of you
know outside europe and traveling and stuff and moving abroad it was really scary i was
like what was going to happen is it safe and stuff especially to a different continent right so i'll do 100 yeah and
and it was so strange it was such a culture shock like arriving we we flew there with two dutch uh
classmates who haasa and some and uh you know still best friends and
we arrived there uh at the airport you know and flying is already kind of interesting but then like arriving in a
place yeah in the middle of the night taking the bus and we we had no idea about how to get to our hotel or our
hostel i think it was even with at a shared like six people dorm
and we were just in a random neighborhood in seoul and uh with neon lights everywhere you know like asia all these neon lights
just like in japan and we were so hungry and there was only like the street food so we eat these
like rice cakes in red sauce and it was like super spicy and we almost
drew up because it was just burning our throat so much you know and and then we ended up in
some bar called the sandbar because sam means tree and we we started drinking
and asking them if they could help us find our way to our home you know and they did and uh
you know so we we drank a lot there and then we ended up in our hostel that night and i don't know that first night
was already like this is so crazy other side of the world you know so much adventures and stuff
and and and that kind of expanded my whole view on like the world and everybody was
really nice like everybody was so nice to us outside and
europe is interesting because it's it's somehow like its own country like a big country because the culture is kind of
similar right yeah for sure the moment you go for insta-asian and my my only experience in india was actually in
india and uh because when i when i moved to to germany i was i'm from portugal working
in germany for six years i met a lot of people from india and i met people from all over the world so this was really really nice to get to know you know
other cultures but asia and india it's such a different way of living you know it's so so
different that you either love it or you hate it you know and yeah and it's yeah i was super addictive and i just
want to go back because this was so interesting yeah totally man yeah it's also relative right like if you if
you grow up in asia then you have the same vibe that like that we have about asia as with
europe like a lot of people here are like dreaming about europe and and they're like obsessed about europe
and i think it's kind of a similar thing it's just like it you grew up in a culture and then you go to another culture and it's just like
it's so exhilarating because everything is different yeah and and it's it's you learn so much and
you're kind of also like you're forced to you know like go outside and and
talk to people and just to survive because you need to eat right yeah somehow order food and
or buy food and and it it but it forced you out of your comfort zone are you the kind of person
that likes to fit in or or to kind of bring your culture you
know i feel that when you're traveling there's two kinds of people you know people that love to be tourists and they
say like yeah we are we have this a lot in portugal by the way and sometimes with my family this happened i'm traveling with my family and we are in a
beautiful beach and it's like yeah we also have this in portugal you know try to bring the culture there and then there's other people like me they're
like i don't want anyone to know that i'm a tourist and i want to just fit in and and to learn from them which kind of
person are you well it's difficult to not look like tourists because i'm blonde and white yeah yeah and that's
not people in asia but uh no i think it's important that you that you try to
uh you know match the culture the local culture a little bit like for example in asia you need to be much more polite
and you need to be uh friendly and and to be talk talk softer
because you know it's like the closer you get to the united states of america the the
higher the decibel of voice you know everywhere you go you're americans always like
it's just so loud and and then europe is somewhere in the middle you know and then asia just speaks often you know so
you need to match the culture and you you need to be respectful and and then i mean of course you you bring your own
culture because that's that's you you know and um and it's always kind of like a mix of you know with covet is very different
because it's hard to now meet people but before covert it's it's like a mix of generally you hang with locals and you
hang with you know other uh foreigners in a place and um there's
exceptions to that but there's also like like places like korea are don't have a lot of foreigners uh living there so you
you hang more with locals um places like bali changu i mean that's definitely like kind of like a resort
town so it's yeah it's mostly foreigners living there and the restaurants are ran by locals and it's good the money flows
the locals it just it's probably harder to hang with locals there because it's uh
it's more of a resort time but yeah yeah i mean there's always a mix and um yeah i mean everybody should do what
they want to do and uh you know if you want to be a tourist that's fine too
when when you go back to and visit your friends uh back home
people that didn't travel do you feel like that there is a difference in perspectives can you still identify with
with your friends uh back home yeah i mean 100 i mean honestly
the friends i had when i graduated are very different than the friends i have now like when i graduated university and
then you know started traveling uh and living abroad are
very different and and i still love those old friends i don't talk to them a lot i talked to the friends that kind of
went the same way as me like you know also went kind of like traveling and remote work and um
i mean i'd love to have a more diverse friend group but it's it
is difficult because um you change
when you go abroad and and and people that stay in their own country also change right
and right people become more set in their ways and it's funny to see that normally
this is my experience as an expat the first like one or two years it seems that every time you go back home
nothing changed and you changed so much yeah but then after like three four
years i started noticing this it means that it seems that like they moved on
they have their life and and then i feel it it's an interesting thing now that i that i returned because
i have a lot of friends that i met as an expat and i really identify myself with them and now i'm
back and my friends here it's hard to reconnect um even though i i like them but no it
really sucks because you had you had a lot of shared history and and there's nothing negative about them there's also
nothing negative about us and and i think it's natural that the people in your life change throughout your life
and it's not a bad thing it's just it's it's a real challenge to have a very
diverse friend group and like honestly i think the people that go abroad the first time and orgonoman and
stuff like the first two three years they're like insufferable that's the word like they cannot stop talking about
oh my god yeah everything's amazing abroad and you know oh my god i went to asia and i went to latin america and
so that's really annoying for people to stay at home but then it's also annoying because the
you know i do think nomads and people abroad they get over it they're like okay it's just it's not better or worse
just like different it's a different lifestyle yeah and that but i do feel like maybe the people that stay at home
they do get threatened by if you make a different life choice than
them because they want to have a cognitive kind of
confirmation that they made the right choice because if they made the wrong choice
for them you know like if things work out for you abroad
and they think they also could have done it then maybe they made the wrong choice so definitely missing out
yeah so then the easy way is to attack it and that's what i do see like people are like like especially like
um you know i would say 2014 2015 i had that a lot
where i would talk to people in amsterdam at home when i was you know flying back and
they were like peter this doesn't work you cannot do this like yeah you know people need community you need roots you
need to be in one place um and you know remote work doesn't work you need you need a an office you need
people colleagues and stuff and all this stuff and i was like yeah i mean kinda but
also i mean all my friends were doing it differently and you know it's going well we're
we're working remotely or we're building companies and it's you know it wasn't going extremely well but it
was we were making our own money from it you know and it was going okay you know and then now of course
everything changed because remote workers mainstream you know airbnb ceo brian chesky just tweeted like uh we're
all gonna become digital nomads and suddenly it's mainstream and and there's a certain vengeance aspect to that like
look i was right but also there's the the the realization i think that you
should be open for different ideas but you shouldn't think that your lifestyle or you know is better or their lifestyles
worse i think it's good to respect everybody's lifestyle and and and i guess learn about it and
what did your family say when you started this life of living the digital nomad like they first of all did they
want you to be an entrepreneur full-time an entrepreneur or were they worried that like okay why don't you just get a job
and and get on with it yeah uh i mean dude my parents are amazing like my mom and dad are
like now i i realize more and more they're really amazing because the only thing they always said was like you know
beat as long as you're happy you know and i guess also don't hurt other people then we're happy for you
you know just do whatever makes you happy and they never told me what to do are they also entrepreneurs
no no my dad's a doctor and my mom is a lawyer but she didn't really work she just raised kids my dad always wanted to
become a filmer uh they grew up really poor and this was after the war in world
war ii so he was born just after that like uh in 1948
and you know the city he was in rotterdam was completely flat bombed by the germans was gone and
it was the whole country was in ruins after the war and everybody was poor so my grandmother told my dad like you know
my dad was like i'm going to go to film school i want to become a film director and my grandmother was like no you're
not going to become filtered you're going to become a doctor so this was i think you see this a lot with
uh families in asia also where the parents tell you what you need to become doctor lawyer or something so i
mean everywhere no in portugal is the same everyone wants you to become a lawyer or a doctor because they make money
exactly yeah yeah it's a way out you know and uh
so it was really it was kind of sucked because he wanted to be and he did he did a lot of film and now he's retired and he studies film history and stuff
and he's doing a phd in film history amazing like uh do you think you are an inspiration for
him no i think he's an inspiration for me and my parents are because um he
i know what you mean he he always told us to do whatever we wanted to do because he was forced to
become doctor right and right that was a big lesson for me like
you know don't do i mean this is also a point of luxury because
if you grow up uh middle class or upper middle class then uh and holland doesn't
really have poverty i mean honestly like the country has a lot of social welfare systems so most of the country is middle
class which is really good um but my point is like uh i had the opportunity because i was like if i was
his generation my mom would have my dad would have told me like you need to become a doctor lawyer so i was the second generation of that
cycle and then you have the opportunity to become you know whatever you want you can also become very lazy i guess
but so where where did the inspiration come from to become an entrepreneur where were your idols man so i come from music
like i was i was first i was doing like graphic design when i was like 12 years old on the computer like photoshop stuff and art
visual art and i was in all these online communities like one one was called now go create the
other one was called yeah ray i think yeah ray still exists this was like early early internet like
2003 or something yeah way back and and we'd always like download like illegal software we've done it like
photoshop you know like the where's websites and we don't photoshop we download like you know other premiere to
make video like after effects i made a lot of graphics like that video graphics i wanted to become really good at this art
stuff and and then i went to a festival in my hometown like annual festival the fidasha faces for this big event we have
and there was a guy with a laptop in this little like really small show there was really big shows music shows all
these really small shows this guy was doing like glitch music like [Music]
like his idm intelligent dash music like very pretentious anyway he had a laptop and he was making
music i was like wow i have a computer so i went back around the stage kind of and i looked at his laptop
like which was the software and then my brother was like oh that's reason so i downloaded this program reason of course i downloaded it
illegally they have money and i started making music and then first i made idm and then i made
drama-based music and then i started you know djing and my own songs in holland and i started doing
uh my own like my own shows and stuff and i even played in in uk i went on the
radio and in uk on the bbc i was playlisted with my music and it was going really well and uh but mostly i
learned from the making my own cd because everybody's making your own music right like you didn't do remixes
no i made my own music yeah that was the special thing because most people just dj i made my own songs
so that's what i find really interesting already because you know i really love music as well i'm not a musician but you
know i play the guitar and i i actually did making an album but just for fun you know but i i find it as the ultimate
um creative art like i don't know i feel that the same with coding i started coding
because i i found a way to transform my ideas into reality with just a laptop
and it's kind of the same with the guitar i mean you can get your thoughts into a song that makes
sense and touch people and you know it's really a great way to to explore your
creativity is that why you like music so much too well well i mean my dad my dad
was also very creative and he always supported us to to make all this stuff on the like all the computer stuff was new but
he was he was smart enough to think like okay this is the future so let these kids play in the computer a lot
make whatever they want like my brother uh made 3d models 3d animation with 3d studio max
back then you know when he was like a teenager and my other brother was doing more like hardware stuff like
electronics and stuff but we were always like creating and my dad and my mom always supported us to
not go like we couldn't ask for like playstation or something
but we could ask for like painting tools or you know a guitar or something like they
really i think purposely pushed us towards creative tools to use and
i mean i would do the same thing and um but yeah of course music and but every
expression of creativity is is just pure and magical and
you know if it's visual art graphic design music or writing even or websites
i think they're like entrepreneurship i think this is the big thing people not in entrepreneurship but not in business
they really misunderstand like entrepreneurship is way closer to creativity in arts yeah then to
corporate big business like i started business and i so i started corporate stuff you did an mba
right so so my bachelor's was like business administration and uh my master's with entrepreneurship so
i learned kind of both things and i think entrepreneurship is way closer to creativity and expression
uh than to big corporate business because business is about like you know wearing suits and it's like management
and it's like yeah you know it's it's also interesting in its own way but it's more like
like mba theory comes from the military actually comes from 1950 us military
management and theory and and and entrepreneurship comes from creativity
from arts you know it's it's completely different and yeah and you know i've been trying to find with all the
interviews i've done i'm trying to kind of find what is an entrepreneur you know what is the
core of being an entrepreneur and one thing that i've noticed is that most of people are interviewed is
they want to create their own thing and and they might be really happy with the company that they are working for
but the only problem that people normally find and i say this all the time is that
it's not their company it's no and and if you if you compare it with let's say
an artist a painter uh i mean there's you can clearly distinguish the difference between
painting someone else's painting right someone tells you to paint something you just do it or painting your own art
yeah and it's exactly the same for entrepreneur i mean you can have some fun working for others in the project
that you believe in but it's completely different than making your own company right
yeah i understand and i think part of it has to do with autonomy like autonomy is a it's a word we don't use or not enough
i think um autonomy my friend elmer de boer he's a dutch writer also kind of makes startups now
but he writes a lot about autonomy and the concept is that having the power over your own decisions
it doesn't necessarily mean that that you're like egoistic or something it means that you have your own authority over your own
decisions and you choose yeah and if you choose to to
do things for other people that's that's also autonomy you know what i mean it's like it's not egoistic it's more like
you said yeah and of course this is you know this
all comes down to philosophy like this is a choice that probably has a lot to do with uh individualism
hyper individualism you know and psychology too though because i feel that people there are people that are
not comfortable with taking their own decisions so much and they prefer you know
being guided and then there's people that like the of responsibility of taking their own
lives in their own hands or or even like being a leader well i i think it's
i mean this is a controversial opinion but if you look at kids like when they grow up how they're playing like creatively with
with like their toys and they're drawing like every kid's drawing always right they're really creative and
they're really autonomous and they are very excited about a lot of stuff and i feel that
the education system doesn't give you the they they they i mean many people say
this but they remove this autonomy and this creativity out of kids right at a very early age like no you did it wrong
you know no that's not how you draw a tree yeah what if you draw a tree in a more interesting way i mean it's it's
it's like you have to follow by the rules and rules are of course they decimate creativity because
you know the best creativity is unbound it's like you know i mean it's
yeah i mean i i think yeah we're definitely getting very philosophical here but i i would also argue that
to live in a community you need the leaders and the creators and then you you need the people that
also kind of fall in line so i don't know if this is not just a survival thing you know when they say no this is
not how we do it we do it like this and then i think this is i think i think you make an assumption
that i don't know if it's true necessarily because you make an assumption based on this this
industrialist capitalist hierarchy of like a percentage of top leaders
and then some followers and stuff i i don't think this is necessarily um
it's just how we run things now but if you look at the future this is not necessarily how we run things in the
future like look at the rise of crypto and decentralization and stuff where
and again autonomy over your own you know accounts your money stuff
accounts that cannot get frozen i think the trend is not towards hierarchy the trend is towards
um that more people have a voice look at look at like youtubers now that get more
views than media channels media channels where are more people that have a voice or different people that have a voice
right i don't know because now if you're a youtuber you can get a voice and maybe before you couldn't
but still it doesn't mean that everyone can have a voice because not everyone can become a youtuber
no everybody can have a voice because everybody can upload a video on youtube right but it doesn't mean that people
will listen to it true but you have to define what it means what it means having a voice like before you
couldn't even get on the tv you know it was like it was a gatekeeper and now it's all open
i think that's that's the potential is there right yeah i mean having people listen to what you say
that's that's never guaranteed that shouldn't be guaranteed but you should be able to have a voice and
but yeah i i i think we are going away from hierarchical structures not towards it
i think that's yeah and if you look at i mean of course you're right history is full of hierarchical structures like look before uh look in this like 12th
century something like the feudalism you know people who own the land and rent it out and
stuff it's it's definitely it's definitely of old time i guess you're right but
i don't think it's necessary yeah i mean it's this is very interesting topic i i totally agree with you but you know i
tend always to question everything and understand if the reason why we are doing it in a certain way is
it the right or wrong but in the end yeah there's no there's no right or wrong right so yeah it's an interesting topic yeah
going back a little bit to entrepreneurship even though i would speak about this for hours you you had your masters in business but
you also mentioned quite often that you learn most of your things by doing
and i i'm very curious about what have you actually learned from your studies
that it would be really hard for you to learn by just doing great question i think
i so i did my bachelor's in business and my master's in entrepreneurship and my bachelor's i like i tweeted this whole mba thread
some years ago with everything i learned all the theory and stuff and business theory is interesting but very
limited because it's it's all these conceptual frameworks like porter's five forces and stuff it's
like these these people who like okay i think we should categorize things in
this way you know and you cannot test these things this is social studies you cannot test them scientifically like like you can test
with biology or chemistry so it's all quite subjective but i think yeah i mean i think basic theory
like porterford is like like i think it's like barriers to entry like being a market with high barriers to entry
you know so it's hard for competitors to get in you need to differentiate diff differentiate as a as a company as a
product that kind of stuff's kind of interesting so these are concepts that you learn in your studies
and uh are crucial for for building your products i don't even think crucial i think
honestly i don't if if i was 18 i wouldn't go to university like i wouldn't i would just
skip it and this was this was i mean different than two years ago i think but now things are changing so fast
like i think the only reason to go to university is to uh show that you have the discipline to sit
through like four years of course work and write a master's thesis or something or best diseases
and surely you have the discipline i think it's a discipline test but i just don't think the connection i
think the world changing so fast now that there's no connection necessarily
especially with social studies like business there's no connection with the current reality of the world and what you learn
in school it's just all outdated within you know a month so you think you could have had the same
success you you had with your projects without going through uh your studies
i think yes when i talk with my dad about it he's always like no well pete you learn a lot of integral academic
fundamentals blah and i'm like because he's really about this academic but i'm like
i don't i don't know man i i yeah it's hard now because you you went through it right like you would need to to find
examples of people that didn't go through it well i i know from my peers like it's always good to compare
yourself to your peers like my classmates and stuff and most people didn't start a company and right most
people just went to become employees and stuff so
man the amount of stuff i learned is like in the reality and practical from doing things in the last like eight
years um would be nothing bad against my university i
think it's just all universities but something like a thousand times more than the stuff i learned in university yeah i
mean i know it's a popular pain but yeah no well i totally agree and in the end a
course is one person that decided that for you to be called an engineer you need to study these subjects
but in reality you need to learn much more right or or just different things depends also what kind of engineer you
want to become and so on 100 basis you know the basis and you get the time also to go
in depth into things that might not be super relevant but in it's also important to know right
let's say mathematics you you probably don't use mathematics in your daily business
but knowing it it it's it's also important somehow because
um it trains your mind to maybe think in a different way yeah i mean obviously like yeah like i i
had i mean i had a lot of problems with mathematics because i'm not good at it so uh i think i got kicked out of high
school for me for my mathematics grades it was too low and i had to get
back into university by doing all these tests uh for statistics and mathematics and i studied all summer
or months in the ethic of my parents house uh just learning this math stuff was so
difficult but um but then honestly pointless no it was just very difficult for me and
like dude integrals like formulas and integrals are insane you need to they're insane yeah you need to
like you need to take a formula and then expand it into what it was like wow it's
so difficult but i barely use that
like i only like in my coding i i do plus i sum format variables and i
right i mean i do sometimes like statistical tests but that's just easy stuff you just search how it works you
install a library like b test t-test and stuff significance but
yeah that's right i think again it's more about discipline it's like showing that you can go through it i think the
social part of university is very important like meeting people dating going on dates and stuff parties
it's very important it's extremely important i think yeah but if you were if you're 18 now like and i keep meeting
more and more of these people that are 18 and they just skip university and just go nomad and
i think i would do that i would go nomads start businesses and stuff try a lot of
stuff you know that's like the most exciting thing you can do now with your life and it's probably right now it's probably as
interesting and probably more interesting than university i wouldn't say this two years ago but things have changed rapidly i mean yeah i totally
understand and i see our point i also think that people shouldn't rush too much to start
their own company and i he just now someone was talking with me on twitter and asking like i'm 18. i need
to start my company right now otherwise i'm losing time i'm like what's that shield
you know there's so much to learn and uh i mean i don't think that there's a need for uh for that stress right just out of
the bat no but i think it's natural like i i had to stress like in my 20s like
and it peaked at like 27 or something where i just had
mental breakdown i mean it's also why i started traveling but like just this stress of like oh my god i'm gonna
be 30 i'm not successful blah blah blah and yeah you know
i think becoming successful and then therapy helps a lot of that
how do you deal with that how do you deal with this you know getting 30 and not being successful like how did you
overcome that it's so relative successful right because like you your life is already great but
but no but i mean when you're 27 26 and you're you know from holland and you're like middle class kid and you and your
goal your dream is to do startup and stuff and then of course your definition of success is then you know getting a
successful startup but right um but what is it successful startup it's like a million is
it exactly the definition is very vague right so so that's that's why you also go into therapy like what is what does
that mean what does mean success for you and and is it something crucial that people
should define before starting no you just go the flow but i think it's
natural that people late twenties have these these breakdowns yeah you know it's everybody has it like it's called
saturn return where the planet saturn returns to the same place it was when you were born i mean i don't believe in
astrology but that's how they call it and it usually happens after you graduate and you're like wow is this it
is this my life i have a job now is this it am i gonna i'm almost free i'm gonna die you know in 50 years this is what
i'm gonna do you know and after 30 you become much more chilled at least i had that and also with my
business now doing well it really helps to become more chill and um yeah like i don't need to impress
people i don't need to i can be very autonomous i
i'm much more relaxed like i was very not relaxed you know i mean it's those stupid stories of
facebook and so on and people are like oh look at him he created unicorn with 22 yeah and and you only hear about this
because it's the survivor bias right so you're like oh my god what am i doing like these people are so famous
yeah and and the odds of you starting building our company are are so small yeah and but the odds of you starting
like that's a good bridge towards indy but like obviously starting a million dollar company are are very reasonable
you know absolutely reasonable absolutely possible because a million dollar company what does that mean it means you
know 5 to 10 x valuation of revenue so a million dollar what's that that's 200k
or 100k a year that's completely in in reach you know right to make a little app or startup or
product or website so i mean okay so let's get into that because you know
it seems to be in reach because you see people doing it but for me you know uh a
bootstrapper that started this seven seven months ago and i'm making like less than 100 bucks a month
you know it seems very very far and i i was a software developer before and i was making a good salary especially in
germany and now for me it seems impossible to get to this salary as as a bootstrapper even
though it's like my purpose and i totally love it what what were you making in germany before
uh 60k right yeah that's a lot yeah yeah tax hike but like that's also the problem because the longer you wait
it's called golden handcuffs right the longer you wait the the higher your salary becomes and the
harder it is to leave because make it like when you quit and you make your own money it's much harder to make
5k with your own business than to do it as employee right so right imagine you make 10k
it's it will take years to get to 10k with a startup you know so
it just gets harder and harder to work for yourself yeah so and this is actually one of the
questions i had here what should one do like should you start something as a sidekick
and still have your job or should you just like go all in
no i think 100 side gig i mean i did the same thing so i did my music stuff and then i started uploading it to youtube
and i um accidentally built a business there i became like one of the biggest electronic music channels networks on
youtube back in 2008 2009 2010 because nobody else was uploading music
on youtube and uh i was one of the first and i got all the big djs and artists on my channel uh in drama base house and a
lot of other genres and um i mean but if you're making music then you were
already an entrepreneur right like i mean well the thing was i was making money with youtube because not just my
own music but also other artists came on i was making money with you know ads so my point is like i was
making a thousand dollar two thousand dollar sometimes eight thousand dollars per month and this gave me a side gig uh this is
where this gave me a main gig so i could do side gigs so i could do right you know go travel after studying uh because
this youtube channel was during my study days and then when i graduated i was like my my friend hosted the guy from
korea the dutch guy he was like you can also do this remotely on the other side of the world why don't you go travel
with your laptop and just make these youtube videos would you make money anyway i'm like cool i'll do it
but the point was i had money flowing in already and that gave me like right you know
it i i left in april 2014 when traveling and
um the mon the first money i made was you know august 2014 or something so it took like
over a year yeah but get to any money i think you definitely need to have
some savings right like so that's what i've done i got some savings i'm actually getting unemployment money from
germany which is amazing that's nice yeah it's really nice so
but i still you know quit any job so i still adds my savings i have this money coming in but i'm doing
100 because it's so much work like it's so much things that you need
to learn so much things you need to try that i cannot imagine how people can do this and still have like an eight hours
or nine hours job on the side yeah i mean that's i mean yeah i mean that's life life is sacrifice you know and
entrepreneurship is sacrificed so if you want to do entrepreneurship you need to sacrifice a lot of things like you know um
this is again this is the barrier to entry if it would be easy to do it everybody will be doing it everybody
will be successful at it so it's i think entrepreneurship is one of the
hardest things to do in life i think it's you know this is maybe biased but i think it comes close to like definitely the
professional life i would say yeah like being a olympic professional athlete is also really hard and i think
it's very similar it's it's it takes so much of you especially in
the beginning when things don't work and it's emotionally so exhausting that nothing that you do
works nothing you know and by the way same with artists like it's the same again it's the same thing
you make all this music and nobody likes it for years
for me being an artist is being an entrepreneur it's yeah again it's the same thing right yeah so
but all the other things like a normal job it's so different because it's not well it's exhausting in a very
different way but it's not exhausting in that nobody uh pays you money like they you immediately get you know two
thousand dollars a month you get paid yeah salary from day one you know it's so different
and that's why i'd say the earlier the earlier you can get into entrepreneurship
or becoming an artist or whatever the better because you get so used to yeah google handcuffs
again you know and interesting i didn't know that concept but but i i mean not to uh
judge your personal personal choices but i would recommend other people to you know not not quit that job and go
live on savings i would because that gives you a limited runway i would
you know maybe work part-time or something and i know it's hard but you need to sacrifice so
you know uh when i did it i was single you know i didn't have a girlfriend uh
much of the time so i i didn't have kids for example so my point is like it doesn't
there was a lot of time like in university there was a lot of time to work on stuff for example university is a great time to work on stuff because
you know you barely need to be present at these classes like i would let my classmates sign for me so i didn't have to go to classes
and you have a lot of time to work on stuff so yeah you know that or having a main gig
and then working on the side i think is recommendable because you don't want to run out of money and then you have to go back and it's just
depressing yeah definitely and i'm i'm kind of in that position as well or i might be in the
future that i will have to go back but i still think it was worth it to be honest i've learned a lot and uh not having a
gig and having to rely on uh on yourself only i don't know it's a
different perspective like you know i don't know if you've ever heard this theory that the vikings would burn their
ships before indeed exactly yeah yeah and i i understand it doesn't
work for everyone but if you have some savings at least for me it worked i i also obviously agree with what you have
to say and well i mean you have you have unemployment money that's that's pretty much the main thing yeah yeah how much
is that what you get it's a lot it's a thousand seven hundred okay perfect then you don't need main gig then you made
the perfect choice you don't need to go back i mean yeah this is enough money to live on and uh
also the nomad thing ties into this like it is a really a really good trick is to to
use this uh freedom to go live in a cheap place you know like
move to somewhere where it's affordable it could be in your own country move somewhere like more rural small town because most of the day you're gonna sit
inside anyway on your computer so why do you need to live in berlin or in amsterdam you know when you can live in
somewhere small you could save a lot you can get like an amsterdam rent would be probably
1500 euros a month now absolutely two thousand thirty yeah absurd but and but then a small town could maybe be 200
right or 300 so that would that would 5 x your runway so you could
or something that kind of stuff is interesting and that's also what i did by with no manning like
like back then i went to chiang mai where i rented a hotel room with like i talked to the manager i
think i paid like 200 a month for a hotel room just really small with the bed and
and the food was like and i was like 50 cents or something for a rice and chicken you know or one
dollar and uh yeah my spending yeah spending was quite low and that gave me uh
yeah gave me a lot of runaway to work on stuff yeah yeah definitely if you get that
possibility i think it's it's totally worth it and if you are willing to do it i think some people might not be
but yeah it's all sacrifice man life is sacrificed like you want one thing you won't get the other thing
going back to to rebase because it's also a bit connected with
israel the possibility of helping people to move to different
destinations um so how how did this idea came to be
yeah so really interesting so uh be before covet started this was like december 2019 i was in chiang mai
with uh like daniel uh john from ghost daniel's my server guy like andre andrazimov the indie
maker guy um a lot of my mark from battle list and whip like a lot of these these kind of
famous indie people a lot of my friends and a lot of nomads and we were all in chiang mai and
um and then kovit hit and i think we flew to we flew to malaysia went to penang
and we were in penang and covered was in china and was starting to spread to malaysia to thailand
and we didn't really understand was this going to be big or small was this like nothing people immediately started wearing masks
in asia was really good and i asked twitter like should i fly
home like what if this thing because it went exponential what if this thing gets worse in asia maybe escape to europe right and
everyone's like yeah go to europe now so i flew home around you know
early february and um i went quarantine immediately i went to the airport hotel in amsterdam
and i went there for like 10 days and everybody was laughing at me like my
parents were laughing at me my friends were laughing me like why would you quarantine like man you volunteering you
you did it yeah this was this was quality didn't exist this was nothing we were on telegram groups with we knew
everything we were like there was so much information that wasn't a mainstream it took the delay from our telegram groups about kovit and
to the mainstream media was like four months it was insane or three months which troops are those
just like friend groups and then there was like specific like covet groups everybody already knew
what was going to happen with kovit on telegram in you know january 26th in asia
no worldwide we already knew what's gonna happen yeah because you could look at the statistics it was a
it was already scientists studying everything anyway my point is like like back then nobody knew anything so i flew back i
was in the quarantine hotel and this is an airport hotel normally voluntarily quarantining um
then i went to my parents house and i stayed there i started buying food i bought like a thousand euros of food
at the big uh supermarket because we didn't know if this was gonna be a crazy
endemic killing everybody or it was like well it turned out to be pretty bad but still
um yeah it's nice i did the same did you also buy toilet paper no no toilet paper i stocked up a food
like like something like february 2 or something and my friends also did and and i was wearing a mask
there was a guy who coughed at me because i was wearing a mask you know february 5 in the supermarket
because this was all before everything dude in netherlands people real it was really
hard to convince people to wear a mask i've been there uh yes and and no one was wearing a mask
even in horrible inspirations like what i mean dutch people dutch people are are a very interesting group of people like
but it took nine months before the dutch cdc to director who's an idiot to admit
like okay masks work like he said don't wear masks yeah anyway let's skip to the stuff so i was in holland for like six
months um you know close to my parents it was also i wanted to be near my
parents because this covet was especially more vulnerable to older people right i wanted to be close in
case something happened and and i was also just paranoid like i was scared that it would get to me as well uh
and then after six months um mark and me left holland mark was also
back home mark from whip battleless inimaker and we went traveling we went to berlin and prague because i was
getting really depressed i was feeling really anxious i had a long-term relationship uh and
she was in korea and i was in holland and it was kind of like not going well because we were far apart and we ended
up breaking up after but uh it was all very depressing and uh psychologically
exhausting and for everybody right it was like the whole coffee look now yeah definitely
so i started traveling with mark started feeling better again um and then on normal at least lisbon was
starting to rank really high and so mark and we're like okay let's fight let's fight portugal and we ended
up living there for like i think eight months or something from like september to april and uh in lisbon you lived in
lisbon city i lived in a coastal town in irisera and i yeah but i was in lisbon like many
times because there was like like lisbon was bustling a lot of cool people and uracil was really chill
because of kovit because you know it was outside air uh you could go for walks like markham
he would go for walks a lot um it was it was kind of covered safe and stuff and it was in nature it is super
nice i really like it too yeah it's magical place it was absolutely changed my life that place and
um yeah the the sunlight and the air like
we we started looking so good in the mirror like like our skin was glowing and
it's there's something about it's so healthy to live there i don't know what it is but the sea salt maybe but we felt
so good yeah we invited friends over and they they were the same they came from this psychologically stressed depressed vibe
from coffee and then being in nearest era and going for walks and you know eating nice food and
seeing the ocean and surfing as well and uh so we're not there and i kept talking to
people like uh foreigners there also like nomads and they kept saying like yeah i'm now resident in portugal and i'm
like what does that mean they're like well uh i moved here and there's a lot of benefits for
foreigners to move here and i was like okay interesting but it wasn't really like that instant but it kept coming up
and then i was looking for a place to live like as a base like
also for texas because uh i have a company but i also need to be like if you're nomad you you cannot just
you need like a legal place to have a bank account you know and to yeah yeah spend money and stuff and uh
so i was like okay this kind of makes sense for me so this actually a lot of people ask me this so
what is the best legal setup for a nomad so you need to have a base and then you pay taxes in that country is that it
yeah so it's really i think you need to talk to a lawyer it's really personal your own situation but the point is you
if you live somewhere over six months you need to pay tax there that's the concept that's the most important concept so
um and if you don't live anywhere over six months then there's an international law that usually falls back to your
citizenship country right so if you are you know german and you
german citizen which is different than residents so citizen is where you're born kind of where your passport is
residence is where you're registered okay so if you're german citizen and you
fly around the world and you live nowhere and everywhere then uh generally you're still taxable
in germany because it's a kind of fallback rule got it okay but if you move to portugal and
you're there you know you register as a resident you're still german citizen but you register in portugal and generally
if you're there six months in a year now you are a portuguese resident and a portuguese taxpayer and
germany doesn't care anymore as long as you don't have doing you're not making money in germany so this is very
like a minefield you need to really do it properly and portugal is very beneficial because it gives you a lot of benefits
tax benefits but also they're very pro-foreigner the government wants to attract foreigners so they're they're
like waiting with open arms to attract foreigners uh right there's no tax on crypto right now that's for example
interesting yeah and and one thing that i also didn't know there's no tax on foreign income
really like you can make money from uh outside portugal and then there's no tax on it so there are specific cases so
again i'm not a lawyer and that's why i cannot disclose any legal information right about the stuff but yeah but
there's uh you need to check your own personal situation but there's specific cases where portugal
wants to attract foreigners that have for example retirement money or death savings or they have
foreign dividends for example which are then not taxed for 10 years and the reason portugal does this is because
they want to attract foreigners to spend money in their country so imagine your portugal which has a brain drain which
is losing population every year now yeah yeah they just had the largest decrease in population in 50 years true last year so
everybody's leaving portugal a lot of people live in portugal because there's not a lot of opportunities for portuguese and portuguese companies they
don't pay a lot paychecks in portugal i mean the minimum wage or something or the the average wage is
something like 700 euros a month yeah mm-hmm if you look at the comparison with the rest of europe this is a easy european country level dude i know i
lived in germany and coming back to portugal it's that's the biggest you know pain for sure it's really it's
really bad and and there's a lot of reasons to go into why this is the case but it comes down to
um that portugal kind of needs foreigners and the government has stated that repeatedly and
um so you realize that the the the government was one one of foreigners there were people
setting up their base in portugal and then uh what what did you decided to do you try to like see okay i want to do the same
yeah so i set it up too and i was really scared because this is going to be like a legal minefield i got a lot of lawyers
uh immigration advisors tax advisers to all go through the through my setup and
they were all like yeah this is legal this is good um and and then i kept getting people asking me
like hey i also want to do this i also want i also want to register in portugal i want to move to portugal and i was like ah interesting like this
is like has a little bit to do with kovit because it was hard to go to bali it was hard to go to asia to all those
places in where nomads normally go like thailand and bali it's hard to go there because kovit was you know all the
borders were closed kinda so a lot of people that usually go to bali asia thailand they would end up in portugal
it's like a new kind of scene of nomads um it was like okay maybe i can make like a
type form and like try resell these services or like refer my immigration advisors to these people
they wanted for like some money admit this type form got some customers
um and then like in november i made a whole landing page for it
uh and i launched it like accidentally launched it on twitter i just made a photo of my laptop on my bed working on
it i wrote like pov uh building an immigration as a service startup oh yes
went viral and everybody suddenly signed up and there was you know 500 signups in a month
and um all right so this is something that i really need to ask because for me it's amazing
so i understand that the idea phase so you identify a problem
and a problem that you own you have yourself so it's much easier for you to understand the problem and how to fix
and so on and that's definitely a great way to to bootstrap a project but then
the launching part is something that i don't fully understand because you had the same for instance with digital nomad right with the
nomination with the normal list you just decided to oh my website then was up uh because of
some nginx config yes and suddenly i had thousands of people it's like no that's not how it happens to me you know like
for me i will share it with thousands or like in reddit everywhere and i don't get enough people so and i was reading
your book and i can see that you have you focus a lot on launching and you say that launching is overlooked
so what is that like what is the difference between your launch and and my launch why does it yours work so much better
than mine well so people people say like oh look he he already has followers and i think
it's true yeah okay but it wasn't true in the beginning and normally this also went viral
so i think it might have to do with the topic like remote work and digital nomad stuff is
kind of has been hot since 2014 it's been it's like an exciting
topic and so there's this thing with like you have reality you have things that are
happening and companies that are being made now and then you have people's brain and their secrets and their insight of their
brain what they're actually thinking right and you want to be in the time where
a lot of people are are secretly thinking the same thing yeah but they're not saying or doing it
yet but how do you know well exactly i have a lot of times where i'm in a
group setting and i will be like for example you're you're you're
meeting all these people you're having dinner and stuff but you're really tired for example you're like tired of walking all day but nobody says that everybody's
like kind of like and then i say like you know i think i'm really tired like maybe we should just like chill
somewhere or i should go sleep and i was like yeah actually me too like many times i
this is really bad example actually like many times i i feel like i think things and because i try to do radical honesty
i try to say what i think yeah it comes out and then suddenly people are like ah yeah i wanted to say the same thing but
i was like scared it was like you know too crazy or something right i think it's
like moving to portugal i mean that's it it's kind of crazy in a way like let's move to portugal and
register in portugal and pay tax there and with no medleys was same like let's be
you know let's move to all these cities in the world and just go live there for a while it
was like so i think the trick is to because with nomad list i was observing
that this was happening already i was in chiang mai and i saw like 20 to 30 40 people 40 nomas there living there right
but it was very small now it's like thousands but i was observing that people were already doing something
and i was working for them but they were not normal people they were like a little bit weird people you know like they were
strange like i'm strange i think and then you need to observe like
you need to try like is this a is this a like fringe is the word f-i-f-r-i-n-g-e
like a fringe thing like a new thing that's like kind of frowned upon you know and then many times where
intuition comes in right and and i know that you kind of believe in intuition and yeah god intuition but
because many times when you think something everybody else is thinking the same thing because we're on the internet and we're all reading the same and
we're all everybody watches porn everybody does things we don't talk about or read
reach articles you know like actually we have a collective brain and
but people are limited by constraints of acceptable society right
like you cannot just move to portugal it's outrageous you shouldn't do that right uh yeah most people will will
think about it but say okay this is impossible you know yeah like like uh man i i would love to
move to portugal but you know it would be unacceptable because i have my friends here and i have my job here how would my
boss react my boss doesn't accept that i work remotely all these things right so
thinking what like this is quote like what people do on the weekends or what nerds or
something do on the weekends everybody else will be doing in the week 10 years later or something yeah that's a quote
so like if you are um doing something special new like
there's a lot of examples of this like indie games like people that were making indie games like in 2010 or something or two and then blew
up and but but if you're doing this this is the problem with also i see in every scene
like music startups everything people are always doing the same everybody else is doing and it's gonna not it's
gonna give you horrible results because you need to be on the edge of something new you know so you think that your edge when you're
launching something is not really your technique or of launching it's more the product and the the
audience uh no i think it's the market i think it's the market you need to be you need to be tapped into the vein of of
people's brain of being in exactly this right time as well right yeah and obviously that
goes wrong because i've launched over 70 products projects and they you know only three or four or something worked out so
most of the times you're wrong some but you need to try and sometimes you're like because i didn't expect this rebase to
blow up like this like now it's getting like 400 500 applicants per month and then at this rate we will have ten
percent of the portuguese immigration market all people moving to portugal ten percent you will have ten percent that's
absurd because because like fifty sixty thousand or fifty thousand people moved to portugal a year so this is crazy so my point is
prime minister already reached out to you no they everybody asked me but these governments are so hard to reach but uh
it's okay i don't care there's elections now it could help i don't know yeah yeah yeah i hope they don't change the the
rules that would ruin my business but um
most people are probably interesting and unique but they are they again the same thing with kids that that in education
system it removes their you know creativity same thing with people like if you say something crazy in your
friend group i had the same in holland i would say crazy stuff that i fought and they're like peter don't say that what the are
you thomas that's not that's not uh you know normal or something yeah acceptable and and you
know you need to let your brain think things yeah because they are interesting and
they might be making great arts they might make great businesses
think you know think differently is the whole concept right yeah don't don't be afraid of uh of think differently and
you know if you take also another example um which which is the elon musk right and the same yeah i know a lot of
people might not like it but you know i love elon musk and i don't understand why people don't like this guy because he's going to to mars
that's exactly it so it's a very very very strange child side guys now that people don't like elements it's very
strange yeah it's it disturbs me i mean i think when you reach a certain point you always say haters but
my point is that he thinks okay how cool would it be to have a really nice electric car you know
and everyone's like yeah that's impossible but he thinks no i mean how cool would this be yeah it's cool let's make it you know how cool would it be to
click in a button move to portugal you know yeah and everyone like oh this is impossible no like it's super cool right
like yes then let's build it i mean i didn't even know this was possible so you need to man how you explain this
so you have this whole you have all these immigration advisors and they're doing everything like really like with emails and invoices and bank wires and
stuff and it's all really slow and you need to have some assumption like i think let's just do this through
stripe let's just do uh all the forms digital let's uh like you need to you need to have some
naive perception like that this is gonna work out and that these immigration advisors or something
the people you work with are to accept that you're doing all this stuff because they live in a completely different reality and
it's just it's just you need to jump in the pool and try and it will probably not work out and sometimes it does work
out but and that's also the thing with like people trying this any startup stuff is
like they try once they will like work on a project for a year and then of course it doesn't work out
because the odds are like three percent or four percent if you're doing really good you need to try multiple things you need
to try man i think you need to try like 20 30 times and
and and also one thing that and from your book we can really see this you really know how to launch in each
platform and how it how it works how each platform works you know reddit is different than hacker news and and
prototype and so on so i think it's also really crucial for people to study the platform before
launching understanding the the people they are launching to this is also you know about it but it's really crucial as
well right like the my biggest annoyance is people that are like thinking you can just
like you can write a tweet and then you can post on instagram and you can post it on tik tok and you can post it on
reddit this is they're so different like something that works on instagram
doesn't work on twitter it doesn't work on tiktok doesn't work you know yeah and reddit reddit is completely anti-spam so
the only thing the only way to leverage reddit is to be to give value like to be a beneficial
community member yeah and and then you might be able to
get them to use your thing and like ask them for feedback for example or right but you cannot just come in with luke i
launched your startup nobody cares you launched a startup average launch you start nobody cares it's not interesting
it's it's annoying it looks like spam and um yeah it's funny because we live too much inside of our brain and we are
selfish by design right so we think that we are we kind of all think that we are the center of the world somehow yeah and we
all think like everyone will care that i launched a startup but then now put yourself in the other person's shoes
like if someone says i just launched a startup whatever would you actually care would you click you know i try to always do this
exercise but it's very hard this is this great exercise the the the best thing you learn is like that like people who
say like i meet a lot of those people like i'm gonna build a billion dollar company and uh yeah they're they're so confident
their own thing and what is the idea i'm not telling you the idea yeah that's that's stuff yeah and then
they launch and completely nobody cares and it barely goes but this is good this is a reality check
because everybody thinks their is special and it's not you need to get stuff out of the door so your first product will fill probably
and your second also you freed also but this gives you a reality check that
yeah what you make should actually be somewhat interesting better or cheaper
right it's a better product or it needs to be cheaper products yeah
and and the can you now this better distinguish if a product will or not succeed before starting it with your
experience i focus a little bit more on like not necessarily but i i like rebase i
know it's a it's a money opportunity like it could make a lot of money right so you start thinking about monetization
immediately also no because i make enough money like now it's something like two to three million a year
so i i don't it's a crazy amount of money but wait for for you almost right like there's no
you don't have a lot of expenses right no yeah exactly so it's it's insane money and
uh and i barely strengthened it it's all invested dude you should not say this
well it's on the twitter right it's on it's on my open so it's more like a challenge to
make a cool uh new startup that's yeah uh that works and but i also still make projects
that that don't have any monetization you know like uh i made airline lists like comparing airlines route maps also but in real
life this is fun because are you afraid of flying or not uh no but well i say a little bit i i i'm
not really super comfortable i i'm i'm more comfortable like i know the
the odds of uh chris flying is really low but i'm more comfortable for my own like irrational
fear if i'm in like the safest airline with the safest plane yeah and i was super afraid actually now i'm much
better i kind of overcame it but when i was super afraid having this filter you know that you have in your website like
safe airlines no crashes would you know just interactionally make me so much more
comfortable yeah but it's so irrational because like i drive a motorbike here in thailand and it's like 180 or something
you die so and then flying the worst airline i think is nepal airlines and it's like 100 000. so yeah exactly and
if i go on a motorbike i'm not scared at all you know so it's completely irrational but but it's nice to fly with like i don't know like singapore
airlines emirates qatar uh with you know airbus a350
yeah uh airbus a380 is great um yeah 727 max i
mean honestly it's not great and it's still the one with the crashes the
yeah and it's still like it's not it the plane doesn't fly without without software like it
like i mean airbus plays also not but this whole plane is wrongly designed for eco purposes it's just not a good plane and
yeah i don't think anybody should fly on it so allegedly i don't want to get sued [Laughter]
so you build a website to kind of show this but like this website is not monetized so i mean like
the monetization aspect is more like i do think more about it um in the concept of like serious companies
like rebates for example but i also think about the impact right like like now with rebates we have
uh venezuelan families uh venezuela is you know
countries quite in ruins and in terms of like the the money and
society and stuff yeah and i had a friend from there and it's crazy told me it was robbed 18 times at gunpoint
yeah it's insane how is it possible yes absurd yeah so it feels nice to be able to move people out of there
help them and and like that was that's i think i'm the most proud of in the last year or
something like that this product is a i don't know it sounds so cliche right it's not easy but not
cliche i think it's i mean it's really important yeah yeah it feels really cool to it like
it's not about money anymore for me but it feels really cool that this is a website that i made like a hp script in
excel php is in excel php is saving people from venezuela like that's amazing i don't know that's the beauty
of thinking i would say yeah yeah i think this because you could do so many bad things with tech like look at facebook all this data stuff but you can
also do really good things and yeah yeah it's just and and you you don't need you know you can do it alone solo
on your laptop from the back that's what i do and with coffee and yeah i'm still doing it after eight years and
you can you can change people's lives and you can leave the world better than you found it and that's also my mission
is that your mission yeah is it like your purpose somehow life purpose yeah i think that yeah yeah i feel
it sounds again so cliche like i'm also not perfect i also make mistakes and i also like you can get rich but then you die
you cannot bring your money yeah into death you know so it's old make doesn't really make it's not useful
legacy is also not that useful but i don't know just it's a nice purpose to have to leave the world better than you
found it and that's no i totally i totally agree with you and it's the same i wrote something similar in india
hackers uh recently because that's also my purpose um
are you religious no i'm i guess i'm agnostic right like i mean like
my family is like well we're not practicing but we grew up like roman catholic weirdly i keep meeting a lot of roman
catholic people like even in asia like the people i um the girlfriends i had were roman
catholic but not on purpose and the friends i have a lot of roman catholic and when roman catholic is like a minority in
christianity you know most are protestants also in my country so i think something is the cultural roman
catholic do you know this yeah i think so i think it is right yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i think uk is protestant holland's
protestants but we were from catholic so but i'm not i'm agnostic like i don't know uh
yeah what there is after death i don't i i i probably believe in like that
you know because i did mushrooms and and also the things you learned like that everybody's connected and
that maybe we're all one one person and one consciousness and right
you know i think that's probably true or something wait but now i don't understand you did mushrooms and that's
you came up with this i mean that's kind of the feelings you have when you do like uh
you know the feelings of connectedness but i i do feel the feelings of connectedness anyway so i really need
drugs to open up so much but it's um i don't know we're all probably the same person
you know the same consciousness this is very that sounds logical to me it's a very interesting video about uh
from kurzgesagt i don't know if you watch it on youtube yeah yeah they have a video just about the theory that in the end we
are all the same person uh it's a very interesting theory i've never yeah maybe like you think about it maybe
you're all one person and and that's god and yeah and then you also get to you know simulation theory or like
multi-dimensionalism i hate those i don't want to speak about that freaks me you know yeah where like
there's like infinite dimensions with different realities and man and if you start thinking about it
it feels kind of lonely you're like oh i'm in my own dimension stuck now and and you know ricky morty
on netflix it's amazing they explore exactly this that it becomes everything becomes
pointless because there's you know infinite exactly exactly yeah but uh so you are agnostic
and you think that maybe there are some things maybe there isn't the reason why i ask is um
again i also seem very similar like roman catholic family not not they don't practice that much yeah but
uh i i kind of slowly lost my connections with religion and i i think that
unfortunately there's nothing after uh well i'm not agnostic but i don't
know but you know that just gives me more purpose of actually doing something
that goes beyond you know having money actually doing a little contribution to the world
is something that really motivates me and i it's not cliche i totally i think it's a great uh mission for life
yeah i mean a lot of cliches are just like true i guess because they're simple and uh yeah but i mean you need to do something
with his life like you could sit in your room and do nothing um i mean why why do you need to
you can i mean it's all kind of like meaningless if you start thinking in that way but
i i get happy from being active doing
stuff like saying also i go to the gym for example that makes me happy i see friends i i like to
be in a flow state where i work on things that makes me happy and but everything is the same value
everything is like you know everything is valueless in a way and but
maybe in a good way it's all the same money doesn't exist you know what i mean like everything is
there's no better and worse it's all nothing because entropy will destroy everything yeah in
a million years and the sun will explode so nothing matters and everything you build up
is goes away every relationship you have you know is not permanent everything dies and
we are getting super dark no but it's it's also really not dark because that shows impermanence and
impermanence if you accept that it's it's quite beautiful and it's
you shouldn't fight it you should just embrace it and and that's that's reality
and you know that's also i guess why people start living in the moment because they realize impermanence you know it's just
like you're just just like eckhart tolle is like power of now that's it this power of now like history doesn't exist
future doesn't it's just now right you're here you're here now um i think ramdas the
buddhist uh or the yogi in india says that like uh be here now
that's it i'll be here and is this also do you think that this is the mentality that also helps you succeed because it
allows you to think outside of the box and say okay let's move to portugal because i'm doing it now or let's uh
yeah i'm thinking away because because if you if you cling to permanence and to you know things and to people you cling
to everything you try to hold everything tight so you don't lose it you're scared of lose loss right yeah fear of loss
and that's really unhealthy i think because it's it's it's trying to give you
certainty right right like clinging to people clinging to things clinging to buying a house cleaning all this and
it's essentially probably your fear of death i think which we all have it's normal but
it's fighting impermanence like i'm gonna i'm gonna collect all this stuff and hoard it
because i um then i can keep it permanently forever right
but that's so moving moving to another place or nomad you learn a lot about impermanence because you cannot carry a
lot of stuff you have a backpack you cannot buy a lot of stuff right so your you understand what is really
important right like this minimalist approach right yeah and and yeah and impermanence
just like that you know and so and it gives you more flexibility to change up your life i guess
um and i also think it gives you more healthy approach to relationships because a lot of people are stuck in relationships or marriages which don't
work anymore and if you believe in you know abundance and impermanence and you you're okay you're
accepted like okay this relationship doesn't work anymore it's fine it's healthy to end this and to
you know i think people are also very afraid to leave their comfort zone uh that's the whole thing because you
don't know what's in the other side right so okay you leave your your wife
and maybe you find another wife that is better your husband yeah or husband or you just uh can have be lonely forever
right uh yeah i i think a lot of men and women after divorce at like 60 or 70 or 50
even you they also go no man you meet them and they have a very you know healthy mindset about this
stuff like just like like we just talked about like this kind of impermanent mindset and
i'm not saying you like of course you should be in a relationship as long as you can of course but
the the fear of loss is is not a good uh thing i think yeah definitely we are
running out of time here and i think we could definitely speak about them for this for for a long time and i think
it's really interesting i love to get more philosophical next time we can do three hours yes we
can do this like joe rogers exactly and just you know think about everything but i think there's a lot of things we
we got to learn more about also your your mindset your philosophy we you gave some cool lessons for aspiring
entrepreneurs as well we end up not speaking that much about the effect of rebase in portugal which
is something that is really interesting so we could speak about this maybe in in the next another session uh as a last
last question what are the technologies that or markets that you are most excited about i'd say i i do think the
whole decentralized stuff is interesting like crypto um web3 i think most of it
is but i think there's definitely fundamental concepts that are really uh will be the future like
um decentralized right concepts seem like censorship resistance stuff like look at
social media posts being deleted everywhere and censored look at people's accounts being frozen
and look at the overreaching arm of like like countries like united states that are just they want to remove russia from
international banking via swift and stuff this is all not good and it shouldn't be there should be power
like that existing and i think it people again autonomy autonomy is really
big trend i think and this also has to do with decentralization so i think definitely will be interesting i
really think the technology is absolutely not there yet like bitcoin is great it works really well but like the
the smart contracts are way too slow uh too expensive and stuff yeah but that's it's it is very interesting technology
and it will definitely only only improve i think and there might be some bubbles and some bursts
but in five ten years i think a lot of stuff will be decentralized yeah definitely i'm also super excited
to see what is going to come up from there peter thank you so much for taking the
time i will uh link rebase and or i guess your twitter profile in the show notes thank you so much for for your
time it was really nice thanks for having me and see you next time for the three hour episode yes
you heard them there will be a next interview to go deeper into these philosophical and bootstrapping topics
if you are new to wannabe entrepreneur this is the podcast about bootstrapping a company i narrate my own journey and
interview other entrepreneurs from all walks of life all levels of scale
about their own journeys and i've been learning a lot and i'm sure that you will too so make sure to go to wannabe
1:21:02 and check out all the other interviews and episodes i have for you
i don't do any advertisements so if you want to support this podcast and you want it to continue you can buy me a
coffee the link will be in the description or you can join our virtual co-working space for bootstrappers a
place where we basically hang out we are all entrepreneur friends like-minded people and we help each other
build our own projects so i would love to see you there it has a cost of 4 euros or 4.6 dollars per month
besides that giving a great review sharing these with your friends it would really take this podcast a long way this
was another wannabe entrepreneur see you next time [Music]

Download Episode

Background Music


Do you like this content?

Download Episode

Do you like this content?